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  • Behind the leading payroll solution in the US for SMBs, Gusto founder Eddie Kim established himself as a legend in tech lore

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March 28, 2024

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On January 3rd, I had the honor to chat with Eddie Kim. Like myself–Eddie happens to be a Stanford alumni. Unlike me–Eddie is the CTO and co-founder of a $9.6 billion company named Gusto: a payroll, benefits, and HR solution for businesses in the US. It’s already hard to find Asian unicorn founders, finding Asian near-decacorn founders is an order of magnitude rarer, making Eddie a certified legend. Despite his success, Eddie remains a very down to earth and genuine person, and I greatly enjoyed chatting with him. Without further ado:

PARENTAL PRESSURES

A common trope with some truth to it, is that many Asian parents pressure their children to pursue more stable, high-prestige careers, such as being a doctor or lawyer. I asked Eddie if he had experienced this:

I got pressure from my dad. My dad was a doctor and, like many Asian parents who are doctors, wanted their kids to be doctors. I think there was a fair bit of pressure from my dad, and then from my mom through my dad, to become a doctor and do pre-med and all that stuff. Of the STEM subjects, which I really liked and was good at, I was good at math, chemistry, and physics. The one that I didn’t like was biology. For me, it always felt like it was about memorizing things as opposed to actually using your brain. It seemed like being a doctor would require more of this, where I have to memorize all these different body parts and so on. I never really considered becoming a doctor, even though my parents really wanted me to. For them, it was the safe path, a prestigious occupation. There’s a lot of good to like about it, you’re saving lives and things like that, and you make a decent amount of money. 

However, once I was in college, my parents encouraged me to be in control of my destiny, which meant potentially starting my own business. They were supportive when I talked about it. Part of it was also that my dad is a doctor who started his own private practice, so he was an entrepreneur himself. When I was really young, my dad was just starting out. He immigrated from Korea and they didn’t have a lot of money. Once he became a doctor and had his own private practice, we were comfortable. We weren’t super rich, but money was not a huge worry. We’d always have food and basic necessities. We couldn’t buy super luxurious things and go on vacations, but it was enough that I could take risks early on. I think a lot of the reason why they were supportive of me starting my own business or doing something more risky was because even if it failed, it wouldn’t be devastating. I’d still have a home to go to and could fall back on my parents. It wouldn’t be a huge burden. So, I think I maybe had a little bit of a different experience than a lot of Asians once I was in college.

I asked Eddie if he thought that his parents were more understanding because they themselves were business owners:

Absolutely. My dad was a doctor and my mom was the one doing all the back office work. She was the receptionist, the insurance biller, the payroll runner. It was a small venture, just my dad and my mom, and they had one employee for 30 years. My dad never worked for a salary, he never joined Kaiser or anything like that. So, he definitely had a more entrepreneurial mindset.

My own mom is a small business owner, and Eddie’s parent’s attitudes paralleled my own parents’ so far. Since I sometimes ask my mom for advice when it comes to business, I wanted to see if Eddie did the same:

Not really. The whole tech world was so different from what they knew. Even questions about how to raise money or what is pre-money post-money valuation, all this sort of tech stuff, they had no idea. They weren’t practically helpful in that sense. But my mom was always super encouraging. She was very supportive, even though she didn’t really have a lot to contribute. It was more moral support more than anything.

SCARCITY MINDSET

Another common immigrant trope is having a scarcity mindset. This often persists even once families establish themselves in America. The traditional wisdom in startups is to build as lean as possible, and at first glance, having a scarcity mindset should help with this. I asked Eddie if he had this mindset and how it was expressed in his startup.

I remember, even though my parents’ practices were doing well, it wasn’t always like that. It started from nothing. We would rarely go out to eat, and when we did, it was at some chain like Sizzlers or maybe Red Lobster. Nothing super fancy. The thought of ordering an appetizer or a drink that wasn’t water felt wrong, like we were getting ripped off. There was definitely this mindset of being very frugal and not treating yourself to unnecessary luxuries. 

As I got older, I was influenced by some of my friends, who had less of a scarcity mindset. They would go out to nicer restaurants. We all had jobs post-college. We weren’t making tons of money, but while I was always about saving everything, they were not. At my first job at Volkswagen, I would pack lunch and figure out how to save about 60-70% of my salary. The rest was for rent, food, and gas. I was able to save, not a ton of money, but I had this mindset of frugality and saving as much money as possible. I’m not sure for what, but it was just the thing you do for a rainy day. My friends, on the other hand, were not saving money at all. They would go out to bars and fancier restaurants. That’s how I got exposed to it. Even though I was always a bit more on the frugal side, I started to see the value in treating yourself a little bit more. I learned from my friends that there’s no point in money if you’re not going to use it for something. What are you saving it for? I think the combination of how I grew up and my friends’ influence helped me find a balance.

I think it wasn’t until my second startup, Gusto, where we had the fortune of raising a lot more money than my first startup. Often, we had this mindset that you could spend a little more money and get higher quality stuff. For instance, instead of buying an Ikea desk, we bought from a company called Room and Board. It was a couple hundred more dollars per desk, but they were much nicer than an Ikea desk. Or like our first hires that we made, right? You can go for super cheap, outsource offshore to build your first product, or you can hire someone that’s really good, pay a little more, and be more generous with equity to get really top talent. 

So, I think it was at Gusto where I learned that if you have the resources to do so, it’s better to spend a little more. Don’t go super cheap on every single thing, don’t go frivolous and pay top dollar for everything either. But there’s a range, I would say, if it’s a range of one to a hundred, I would say a range of 70 to 80, or maybe 80 actually, where I think it’s worth spending that much because you just get so much more for it. Long term, it pays itself. 

There’s a moment where once you have the means, I think your mindset should shift a little bit. Not to go extravagant, but to not have so much of that scarcity mindset that we grew up with. 

BEING ASIAN AND BEING A LEADER

As I always do, I asked Eddie how he felt being Asian qualified his experience as a founder, and if it was something he thought about a lot:

I think to a certain extent, but not a ton. It’s not something that is always top of mind and something that I’m very self-conscious about or have imposter syndrome of. But also at the same time, it is something that’s kind of in the back of my mind. I sometimes ask myself, do I have what it takes to be a leader of hundreds of people in the organization? Will people not respect me as much because I’m Asian and Asians tend to be perceived as less of a leader than say, a white person. And so you definitely have a little bit of that, but also at the same time, I feel like whenever I have those thoughts, I tell myself that, no, why can’t you break the mold, right? Why can’t you be one of the first Asians that have done X or Y, right? Or one of the few Asian co-founders of a unicorn company, right? And so then I start to get excited about the concept of, “Hey, I can actually show people that it can be different.” And then, so it kind of turns into more of a motivating factor for me.

Eddie’s answer seemed to be focused on being a leader. From the research I did, it seemed like Eddie struggled in the transition from being an individual contributor to more of a manager role (or people empowerment at Gusto). I asked Eddie how he approached crafting his leadership skills.

One was, I had people that I could talk to that had more experience in it than I did that were very generous with their time and giving me advice and mentorship. Some of this came through investors that were early in the company. Our first seed round was basically a horde of angel investors that were entrepreneurs, right? It was people like Aditya, who was the head of engineering at Dropbox at the time. It was Jeremy Stoppelman, who’s CEO of Yelp. Drew Houston of Dropbox was among the founders of tech companies we wanted to invest in as some of the first investors. Through that, either directly or through people they knew, I got connected and would meet with some of these people regularly to get their advice on whatever issue I was facing. I remember actually talking to Aditya, at South Park in Soma, discussing how to structure comp bands. 

Having people around to ask was really helpful. I read a lot of books. I have this shelf full of business books. Things like High Output Management from Andy Grove, The Score Takes Care of Itself by Bill Walsh, and Mindset by Carol Dweck. Those are my three favorite business books that I read and they really helped me learn the tactics as well as the characteristics that are helpful in becoming more of a people manager. A lot of it is just experience. You do, then you fail and you learn. Like anything else that you spend time on, the more time you spend on it, the better you get at it. It’s really a question of how fast you progress. You will progress the more time you do something. Some people progress really fast, some people progress more slowly. But the point is that as long as you do something for a long period of time, you stick with it, you do get better at it. And then you like it even more. So it’s those three things: people, literature, and your own experience.

CUSTOMERS VS. FEATURES

When I spoke with Siqi, one of the things we talked about was how different potential customer segments can want completely different types of products and features, and how to think about where to prioritize. I asked Eddie for how he navigates this with Gusto:

In an unrealistic scenario where you have unlimited resources, it’s always better to have more features than less. However, the reality is that you have constraints in your resources and can’t do everything all at once. You have to decide how to invest your limited resources. You could build new features, improve the quality and scalability of what you have, or create new front doors into the product and focus more on acquisition and growth type efforts. 

At Gusto, we often have larger companies asking us for additional features for their businesses. At the same time, we have many small businesses that don’t know about us yet. So, we have to decide whether to focus more of our resources on creating more features for these large companies or creating more awareness of Gusto for all the small businesses that haven’t used any of our features. 

It really comes down to what you want to prioritize. For different companies, the answer will be different. It’s important to stay disciplined about who your customer is, who your target demographic is. It’s easy to just answer feature requests and get pulled into a direction that some of your customers want in the short term. This might help you get more money in the short term, but over time, you might find yourself not really focused on who your product is serving. 

Many companies have to be aware of this danger. If you start to prioritize too much of the short term feature requests and chase revenue short term, then you can miss the bigger picture. This company is building a product that works really well for this customer demographic. 

At Gusto, we always think about who our customer is. For us, it’s really the small businesses. It’s very enticing to try to go upmarket and land companies that are in the 100 or 500 employee range or a few thousand because they pay you so much more money than small businesses. Every once in a while, an opportunity comes along where a larger company says, “if you do this, then we’ll sign up”. This could be a huge deal for the company. It’s really hard to say no to those things, but you have to, because you really want to stay focused on who you’re serving. 

I asked Eddie to go a little deeper on the dangers of chasing the short term requests of the larger companies:

I think the danger is that there are two risks to this. One is you are diverting resources from something else. That could be a global maxima versus a local maxima. So that’s an opportunity cost that you could be missing. The second risk is that you lose focus on what makes your product or company so special. If we, for example, went and built a bunch of enterprise type features in Gusto that allowed any company to customize it to their heart’s content, that would be a very confusing experience for the 99% of our customers who are very small, who don’t want a customized solution because they have no idea how they want to do things and they want Gusto to guide them on how to do things.

GOALS FOR LARGER COMPANIES

Since Eddie is one of the few at the helm of a $500M ARR startup, I wanted to ask him what startups at that size prioritize, and if rapid growth was still the goal:

I think as you get more mature as a company, you start to think less about just growth at all costs. You start to think about growth at a reasonable price. There’s actually a non-standard technical term for this called GARP – Growth At a Reasonable Price. The rule of thumb for a later-stage company is that you want a GARP of 40 or above. GARP is essentially your growth rate minus your operating margins. So if you have a growth rate of 40% year on year, you’re growing your revenue 40%, then you should be breaking even because your operating margin is going to be zero. So 40 minus zero is 40. If your operating margin is 10%, then it’s 40 plus 10, which is 50. So that’s awesome. You’re going to get a really good response from your investors and the public.

Markets will be very happy if you could accomplish 40% year on year growth and 10% operating margins, right? You’re putting out 10% of profit cash flow every single year. If you’re growing at like, say 60% year on year, which is incredible growth, you can actually be negative 20% operating margin, and still have a GARP of 40%. You’re still going to be in a really good spot. So this formula really balances your growth with your profitability, your operating margins and using this rule of 40 is a pretty good rule of thumb for the markets when you’re a later stage company. When you’re early stage, it doesn’t really make any sense to use. 

Eddie’s comment on how “the markets would be happy” suggests to me that mature startups at this stage are looking at the numbers more at an IPO angle, and determining what public investors want to see.

BENEFITS OF DEI

At this point in the interview we ran out of time, but there was still one question I had for Eddie that I really wanted to ask. At the time of writing, the daily Twitter discourse was about DEI, so I wanted to get Eddie’s opinion on DEI. I emailed him the question after our interview and he graciously responded:

Gusto clearly takes DEI seriously given the RISE report. Do you feel that DEI is important at every stage of a startup or does it start gaining importance once a company is a certain size?

In my opinion, DEI is actually the most important in the early stages because there really is a vicious or virtuous cycle when it comes to building diverse teams. If you start early with a diverse team, you’ll attract more candidates from diverse backgrounds. The opposite is true too. 

I actually wrote about it a couple of times: 

https://engineering.gusto.com/growing-our-engineering-team-in-denver-diversity-begets-diversity/

https://engineering.gusto.com/staying-ambitious-on-diversity-new-goals-for-gusto-engineering/

SHOUTOUTS

If you are looking to start a business and/or hire your first employee or contractor, please consider using Gusto, the #1 payroll software in 2023!

Additionally, Gusto is hiring across technical and non-technical roles. You can find their job postings at https://gusto.com/about/careers

Thank you Eddie for speaking with us!

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Do Western Holidays Have a Place in Asian Cultures? A Debate on Globalization and Cultural Identity

In San Fernando, the Philippines, thousands of locals and foreigners flock to the streets to celebrate Christmas. The town, adorned with giant and intricate star lanterns, symbolizes hope and the victory of light over darkness. 

Star Lanterns in San Fernando, the Philippines (Image Source: Dico Calingal)

But how did a holiday rooted in Western tradition become celebrated in an Asian country, and what about the reverse? This raises an intriguing question about hybrid holidays and their influence on a nation’s cultural identity, particularly in Asian countries. Truth be told, nothing is perplexing about an Asian country celebrating a Western holiday and vice versa—who doesn’t want more holidays to celebrate? However, hybrid holidays allow for the exploration of whether these celebrations diversify the identity of Asian countries or act as a catalyst for eroding their traditions and heritage.

As one of the largest diaspora populations on Earth, the Filipino diasporic communities provide a valuable lens through which to examine the rise of hybrid holidays and their impact on national cultural identity. According to Dr. Anthony C. Ocampo’s interview with NBC, the Philippines underwent a dramatic transformation during its three-and-a-half-century Spanish colonial period. Similar to the Philippines, many Asian nations also endured decades of colonization, imperialism, and the imposition of Orientalist ideologies. For example, countries like Vietnam have adopted numerous terms from Latin, such as Noel, festival, flan, and vin (the Vietnamese term for wine, rượu vang, is pronounced vin). Scholars widely acknowledge that colonizers employed various tools—religion, education, and language—to assert control. Thus, it’s debatable whether exposure to foreign holidays and customs serves as another subtle form of maintaining dominance.

Yet, both nations, like many other Asian countries, have become uniquely distinct. More interestingly, many countries under foreign rule experienced a period of hesitation in adapting to these foreign changes. Only in the modern era did we see these holidays being adopted. Globalization and social media have accelerated cultural exposure and sparked a desire to assimilate among individuals. As a result, we see holidays becoming more homogeneous and embraced regardless of ethnicity. For instance, Vietnam celebrates both New Year and Lunar New Year with fireworks and live events aimed at captivating both international and local audiences. In contrast, states like California in the U.S. not only celebrate the Lunar New Year but declare it a state holiday to promote diversity and honor the traditions of its Asian community.

People celebrating Lunar New Year at Santa Monica, California (Image Source: Santa Monica)

For many, globalization represents homogeneity and modernization, but the challenge of rapid development lies in balancing it with cultural identity. On this precipice, an argument emerges that cultural hybridity is unattainable without conflict. While the topic of immigration might seem like a digression from the discussion of hybrid holidays, it provides insight into why such holidays may disadvantage Asian communities. The upcoming article on The Broken Dream delves deeper into the harsh realities faced by Asian immigrants, addressing the barriers to cultural assimilation. Upon arriving in a new country, many immigrants face language barriers that hinder their ability to engage in daily life. Additionally, being in a foreign land creates a disconnect from cultural practices once shared back home. This amalgamation has contributed to the erosion of cultural identity within the Asian diasporic community and, ultimately, a lack of representation and recognition of Asian holidays in Western nations. Thus, despite both Western and Asian countries experiencing globalization, the lack of representation and centuries of influence have made Asian communities more likely to accept Western holidays rather than maintain their own.

Understanding the significance of hybrid holidays on a nation’s cultural identity requires accepting that not all nations are the same. Globalization offers vast development, but it also poses the risk of diluting cultural identity, particularly for Asian communities across the globe. However, the growth opportunities outweigh the risks, as seen in the increasing recognition of holidays like Diwali and the growing acknowledgment of the Lunar New Year by international brands seeking to connect with consumers. Hybrid holidays provide an intriguing perspective on how Asian cultural identities have evolved, influenced, and grown. Through globalization, the world has come to recognize and appreciate the profound impact of the Asian community. This opportunity to celebrate and embrace holidays from diverse backgrounds has enriched Asian cultures, making them more accessible to people from different parts of the world. 

The implications of this insight are vast. As members of the Asian community, we must understand that representation matters. The holidays we celebrate reflect our individual and collective identity, showing that we are adaptable to change while remaining true to our roots. This adaptability is one of the reasons why the cultural identity of Asian countries is so idiosyncratic. Now, the only question for us as readers is how we can represent our identity in a way that makes us proud while staying true to our heritage.

  • 5 min read
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News

Asia’s Negative Mindset & Crab Mentality

Japan has an old proverb: “The nail that sticks up gets hammered down.” 

While in China, there is a saying, “The higher the tree, the stronger the wind.”

In a critical lens, both idioms illustrate harmony and unity – a vital essence of Asian culture and heritage. Nevertheless, the proverbs also shed light on a contrasting school of thought: conformity and crab mentality. 

Crab mentality refers to the situation one can explore by placing a crab or a collective of crabs in a bucket. A lone crab can inevitably crawl out of the bucket, however, a peculiar scenario would arise if one situates a group of crabs in a bucket. As a crab tries to crawl out, the other crabs will pull it back down. If it tries again, the others will rip its claws off to ensure it can never do so again. Ultimately, no crabs can go anywhere besides the stew pot you are brewing. 

Crab in a bucket scenario (Image source: Microsoft Designer)

Crab in a bucket scenario (Image source: Microsoft Designer)

It is naivety to assume human beings are a unified collective group. History, wars, and jealous conflicts are testaments to human being’s selfishness. Hence, it is arguable that we are inclined to place ourselves above others, even if it means at the expense of our peers. Despite being a precarious thought, this insight opens new dimensions to understanding crab mentality in the human context. 

“Remember your cousin Timmy in China? He has 15 years of experience. He’s nine!” 

Steven He’s dad (played by Steven He) exclaimed.

Terms like “Asian-level difficulty,” “Tiger Moms,” and “Asian parents” have become widely recognized through memes, movies, and other mainstream media, serving as a lens for global audiences to understand and appreciate aspects of Asian culture. Yet, one community still paints a negative view of the Asian community, even discriminating against its individuals – and the answer is ironically the Asian community itself.

The purpose of this work is not to discriminate or criticize any peculiar group but to foster intellectual discourse and encourage reflection on societal dynamics and individual perspectives. The chosen quote embodies this intention, capturing four intertwined facets.

Understanding the concept of face is crucial when discussing Asian culture and heritage. Face serves as a societal construct that governs social interactions and determines one’s standing within a social hierarchy. It is a dynamic measure that can be given, earned, taken away, or lost, often extending beyond the individual to include family and friends. For those unfamiliar with this concept, here’s a simplified explanation:

  • A wife who earns a promotion gains face for herself in front of her boss, while also bringing face to her husband and parents through her achievement. 
  • Conversely, a student who performs poorly on an exam loses face among peers, and their parents, in turn, lose face within their social and familial circles.

Despite being debatable, visualizing face as a form of currency provides an interesting lens through which to examine crab mentality in Asian communities. Much like any valuable asset, currency must be earned, safeguarded, and strategically utilized. Losses, even those meant for long-term gains, are approached with caution and calculation. Consequently, individuals strive to enhance their reputation while using criticism to diminish the face of others.

The concept of face is deeply tied to education and parenting, playing a role in fostering crab mentality. Asian children are often raised to prioritize self-achievement above personal aspirations, adhering to predetermined paths for the “greater good” of the family. This emphasis on collective reputation often comes at the cost of individual dreams, reinforcing a mindset where personal success is weighed against familial expectations.

Parenting can affect mindsets, a reflection on Tiger Moms (Image source: Mims On The Move)

Parenting can affect mindsets, a reflection on Tiger Moms (Image source: Mims On The Move)

Indeed this is a generalized claim that leaves certain minorities for speculation, but the interplay between face and sacrifice is crucial in understanding the environment Asian children grow up. Literary works like Truyện Kiều (Tales of Kieu), a renowned Vietnamese poem, highlight traditional ideals through terms like cầm-kỳ-thi-họa—the four virtues defining a successful woman. Similarly, the stereotype of Asian children being expected to become doctors or lawyers has become a familiar cultural reference in contemporary discourse.

No parents want their children to grow up as bad people. Hence, it would be injudicious to blame parents and the system for a negative societal mentality. Yet, there are certain repercussions to sacrificing a child’s dream in return for a destined path to greatness. This leads to the third facet of crab mentality in Asian communities: A ramification for every child following the same success path means comparison and competition. 

Let’s revisit Steven He’s joke: Timmy is used as a benchmark for comparison. The only way for Steven to save face is by climbing the same ladder and offering Timmy a similar spiteful insult. This vicious cycle of comparison fuels crab mentality within families, peers, and the broader community. True to reality, Asian students often spend countless hours in extra classes and clubs to meet rigorous expectations. Tiger moms push their children to excel in every class as if their lives depend on it. There is no middle ground—you’re either a winner or a failure.

This brings us to the final facet: the absence of praise and apologies. Ironically, according to BBC and Vocal Media, Asia is home to some of the politest people in the world, with countries like Japan and Thailand leading the way. Despite this, hierarchy plays a pivotal role in relationship dynamics. To save face, many Asian parents rarely offer praise to their children. Astonishingly, when it comes to apologies, parents often go to great lengths to defend their actions rather than acknowledge their mistakes. 

A similar response can be seen in Asian workplaces, where higher-ups are more inclined to criticize and are far out of reach from their team members. Individuals will praise their peers and colleagues in hopes of receiving similar treatment instead of actual commemoration. Workers often segregate themselves into teams of interest to promote one another instead of collaborating as a group. These groups create outcasts who, despite their talents, are looked down upon and have their accomplishments taken or snuffed out by negative criticisms. This reluctance to give praise and apologize reinforces a mindset of self-achievement above all else. At first glance, mentality such as these are not wrong, but they leave cracks for detrimental thoughts of arrogance and selfishness – ultimately sustaining the crab mentality.

While this article explores the crab mentality within the Asian community, it is important to recognize that this negative mindset is not exclusive to any one group—it exists everywhere. The concepts of face, self-achievement, competitiveness, community, and sacrifice are what make Asian heritage unique and beautiful. This work argues that these cultural elements are not the root cause of the crab mentality, but rather, insights into why such a mindset may emerge. 

  • 6 min read
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News

The Rise of Asian Representation in Food Shows: A Lunar New Year Celebration

Credits: Patricia Ratulangi Vice President, Global Communications Nielsen

In recent years, food shows featuring Asian chefs and cuisines have seen a surge in popularity, capturing the attention of diverse audiences around the globe. This trend highlights the growing appetite for cultural representation and inclusivity in entertainment. As we celebrate Lunar New Year—a holiday deeply rooted in food traditions—it’s the perfect time to reflect on how Asian representation in food media resonates with viewers and drives mass viewership.

Food shows featuring Asian chefs and cuisines highlight cultural diversity, resonating with audiences and driving viewership, especially during Lunar New Year celebrations.
Food shows featuring Asian chefs and cuisines highlight cultural diversity, resonating with audiences and driving viewership, especially during Lunar New Year celebrations.

Food shows stand out as a medium where culture, tradition, and storytelling intersect seamlessly. Programs like Top Chef, which has featured contestants such as Melissa King and Hung Huynh, and The Great American Recipe, where home cooks celebrate diverse culinary heritages, showcase the rich variety of Asian cuisines and the personal narratives behind them. These stories invite viewers to connect with the cultural roots and contemporary adaptations of dishes they may have never experienced before.

2024 Viewing MinutesAsianTotal U.S.
Top Chef‎‎  ‎ 458.0 million5.7 billion
The Great American Recipe‎ ‎ ‎ 9.8 million84.5 million
Chrissy & Dave Dine Out‎‎  ‎ 9.2 million61.4 million
Dinner Time Live with David Chang‎ ‎ ‎ 67.4 million430.1 million
Source: Nielsen audience measurement: Jan 1 – Nov 30, 2024

Lunar New Year exemplifies the central role food plays in cultural celebration. From dumplings symbolizing wealth to fish representing prosperity, the holiday is a sensory feast steeped in meaning. By spotlighting Asian chefs and their innovative approaches to dishes that represent their heritage, food shows bridge the gap between cultural nuance and modern audiences. 

A Tết (Vietnamese Lunar New Year) tray filled with traditional Vietnamese dishes for Lunar New Year, symbolizing happiness and peace.
A Tết (Vietnamese Lunar New Year) tray filled with traditional Vietnamese dishes for Lunar New Year, symbolizing happiness and peace.

The success of Asian-centered food programming aligns with broader audience preferences for authenticity. Nielsen data reveals that 63% of viewers are more likely to support brands and content creators that authentically represent diverse communities. For mass audiences, this means a greater willingness to engage with shows that go beyond superficial portrayals and offer genuine insights into Asian culinary arts.

The viewership data highlights the significant appeal of food shows among both Asian audiences and the broader U.S. audience, underscroring the growing đemand for authentic, inclusive food shows that celebrate diverse cultures.

Nielsen Chart A
Nielsen Chart B

As Lunar New Year festivities fill homes with the aroma of traditional dishes, the increasing visibility of Asian representation in food shows reminds us of the universal power of food to connect people across cultures—one dish, one story at a time.

  • 3 min read
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Stories

Michele Wong McSween Brings Chinese Culture to Life Through Gordon & Li Li

Navigating one’s cultural identity is confusing, especially in a diverse nation like the United States (US). One minute, you proudly claim that heritage of yours, and two seconds later, you feel as if your identity were the main character of a roast party. That carries on to the parents, who face the challenges of keeping their children connected to their roots amidst the complexities of a multicultural society. 

As a Chinese parent, Michele Wong McSween knows this all too well. By the time Michele became a mother, the pressure of teaching her children Mandarin had only grown stronger. That gave birth to “Gordon & Li Li,” a series of books designed to make learning Mandarin and connecting with Chinese culture fun and approachable for kids.

Michele Wong McSween cleverly dilutes the weight of this language in her new upcoming books, Gordon & Li Li: Celebrate Chinese New Year Coloring & Activity Book and All About Me, inspiring families to embrace their heritage, one book at a time.

Throwback New Year

Back in her early Lunar New Year days, Michele would help her mother decorate the house with blossoms, prepare lucky foods, and then gather at her grandparent’s home for a joyful dinner celebration. And what’s Lunar New Year without the iconic Hong Bao (red envelopes) and the sounds of familial peals of laughter? It was these little moments with her family that developed a lifelong passion for Chinese culture and language.

But the mounting pressure of growing up and starting a family soon dawned on her the challenges of instilling that same cultural pride in her children. “As a fourth-generation Chinese American, I didn’t grow up with the gift of language, and I found the books that existed to be intimidating, old-fashioned, and uninspiring,” she says. “How could I expect my children to get excited about learning a language when I wasn’t even inspired to?”

The Birth of Gordon & Li Li

The struggles to find suitable and engaging resources for her kids to learn Mandarin inspired Gordon & Li Li, a children’s book series that takes readers on the journey of two main characters, Gordon and Li Li. Mandarin Chinese is already a tough language, let alone studying it like a daily chore. So, she created her own educational books that blend entertainment and cultural values while adapting to modern technology, making these lessons more engaging and accessible.

The initial concept was to become the “go-to” board book series for families eager to introduce their little ones to Mandarin and Chinese culture. Within three years, I self-published three books, but as my children grew older and their learning needs changed, I knew I had to create something that could grow and engage with them in this next phase. Seeing how much they loved learning on an iPad, I entered the technology world and created and launched the Gordon & Li Li: Learn Animals in Mandarin app on iTunes in 2012.

Recognizing the challenges she faced while teaching her children Mandarin, she came up with the idea for "Gordon & Li Li" - a fun and engaging book series to help children learn Mandarin.
Recognizing the challenges she faced while teaching her children Mandarin, she came up with the idea for “Gordon & Li Li” – a fun and engaging book series to help children learn Mandarin.

For all the grand visions, there lie the grappling challenges Michele must balance: being both a full-time mother and a founder. Her working hours began when her children went to bed, often ending late into the night, only for her to start the day all over again. Not coincidentally, these burdens are further intensified by her lack of experience in publishing, marketing, or business management.

As a mom of three boys, the hardest part was trying to find the time and energy to spend on G&L while balancing the demands of motherhood. My work day wouldn’t begin until the boys were in bed. I’d clean the house, spend a few hours on G&L, go to bed by 1 a.m. or 2 a.m., then start the day all over again. On top of that, with no training in publishing, marketing, or running a small business, I often felt like I’d take one step forward and 100 steps back.

In those moments, the fleeting thoughts of giving up are already tempting enough. Despite this, her commitment and perseverance led her on a fortress path. Better still, the “heartfelt” feedback she received along the way has proven to be highly worthy and rewarding. After all, trees will bear fruits—and her fruits can help sustain many following generations on the heritage tree.   

Sixteen years in, and I’m finally learning to embrace the challenges as opportunities to grow instead of seeing them as failures. I’ve surrounded myself with a supportive network and a strong community, and I’ve become more patient with myself as I learn new skills. I’ve also learned to practice self-care because self-care isn’t selfish—it’s essential!

Michele Wong McSween continues growing this age-old tree of Chinese heritage through her two upcoming books, each offering a unique and engaging way for children to learn Mandarin.

Gordon & Li Li: Celebrate Chinese New Year Coloring & Activity Book and the Impact of Lunar New Year and Family

Michele’s work shows an emphasis on family, which is placed at the forefront in many Asian households. Her upcoming book Celebrate Chinese New Year Coloring & Activity Book is a reflective extension of that value, whereas Lunar New Year has always been traditionally associated with family gatherings. “My favorite childhood memories of Lunar New Year were the source of inspiration for Gordon & Li Li: Celebrate Chinese New Year,” she says. “These core memories have inspired me to continue the traditions with my own children and through my book. I hope that families everywhere can enjoy celebrating Lunar New Year, whether they’re reconnecting with their heritage like me, or learning about it for the first time.”

With the Celebrate Chinese New Year Activity Book, I hope to bring the fun and festive traditions of the Lunar New Year to children through interactive, hands-on activities. I specifically designed it to engage with kids as they grow. From simple coloring and matching activities to more challenging ones like Chinese Character Search, Crosswords, and Find the Differences. This book has something for everyone and helps connect children of all ages to the excitement and significance of the New Year.

Michele's upcoming book, Celebrate Chinese New Year Coloring & Activity Book, reflects her childhood memories of Lunar New Year and aims to engage children of all ages with interactive activities.
Michele’s upcoming book, Celebrate Chinese New Year Coloring & Activity Book, reflects her childhood memories of Lunar New Year and aims to engage children of all ages with interactive activities.

Exploring Body Awareness With Gordon & Li Li: All About Me

Gordon & Li Li: All About Me, on the other hand, tackles something closer and more physical, introducing young readers to parts of the body through Mandarin. Illustrated with playful and colorful artwork, each page opens a world of body parts such as fingers, toes, and shoulders. Basic words like “fingers” (手指, shǒu zhǐ) and “toes” (脚趾, jiǎo zhǐ) are demonstrated in fun and engaging ways with real-life examples to help children apply the words to their everyday activities. For example, “I am counting my ‘shǒu zhǐ’” or “Li Li is dancing ballet on her ‘jiǎo zhǐ.’”

Gordon & Li Li: All About Me introduces young readers to body parts in Mandarin, using playful illustrations and real-life examples to teach words.
Gordon & Li Li: All About Me introduces young readers to body parts in Mandarin, using playful illustrations and real-life examples to teach words.

This thoughtful approach allows children not only to learn new words but also to develop an early connection to body awareness and confidence. The simple, portable layout makes it perfect for children to carry wherever they go. And that’s not all! As the book comes to the last page, children can also practice singing along to the childhood anthem “Head, Shoulders, Knees, and Toes” in Mandarin, creating a fun and memorable activity for young readers.

Children reading a book from Gordon & Lili

Celebrate With Special Giveaways and Events

The journey is long, yet, the fruits are arriving. Landing a deal with Scholastic and building connections with talented individuals within the AAPI community has been inspiring and defining in her growth, professionally and culturally. 

What I’m most proud of is seeing the pride in my sons’ faces and the deeper cultural connection we’ve built as a family through this shared experience. It fills my heart with pride knowing that Gordon & Li Li connects us as a family and it inspires me to continue creating something meaningful for my boys—and for families everywhere.

In celebration of her new book’s release, Michele Wong McSween is hosting exciting Lunar New Year events and giveaways! These events are perfect opportunities for families to explore the books in-depth, enjoy a range of interactive activities, and learn more about Chinese culture and language. Stay tuned to AHN or Michele’s social media (mentioned below) for more updates on the giveaway!

Yet, Michele’s vision does not stop there. She shares that another book is already in the works, called Gordon & Li Li: ABC’s in NYC, set to launch in time for AAPI Heritage Month! This exciting new book will introduce children to learning their ABCs while exploring Gordon’s hometown, New York City.

Connect With Michele Wong McSween

Facebook: Gordon & Li Li 

Instagram: @gordonandlili

Website: Gordon & Li Li

  • 8 min read